You have to hand it to the BBC, if there is ONE subject which brings out their innate bias, it is that of Israel. Did anyone else catch THIS item from earlier today? Not once is the tricky issue of Palestinian terrorism brought up during the entire interview even though it is central to Israel’s need to ensure effective security. I also was interested in the way in which Obama’s one-sided kow-towing to Palestinian interests in treated as the right course of action by the BBC. Couldn’t help but wonder if Humphyrs had his Keffiyeh on when conducting this interview? (Also, can anyone tell me where the “West Bank” is? Could this refer to Judea and Samaria? Just wondering….) The Fatah representative was allowed to get away with murder, plus ca change.
INSTITUTIONAL JEW HATRED
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RS
Seems to me you have an utterly one-sided view about events surrounding the creation of Israel.
It is a non sequitur for you to suggest that I am happy with ethnic cleansing or murder.
On EITHER side.
But you have ducked the blunt question – do you think that the state of Israel should have been created ? The drift of your comments suggests that you do not.
RS,
You have only quoted from well-known pro Arab voices and memes, and one wonders if you are aware that any others exist. You’re about as brainwashed as it gets, everything you’ve regurgitated makes this plain.
The problem is, you will think that it is us who are brainwashed.
Let’s assume, shall we, that both sides have listened only to voices we have chosen to support, and have ignored or disregarded the arguments made by opposition.
So you have chosen the Arab narrative, we the Jewish.
The evidence provided by Islam-driven antisemitism, together with the record of deviousness duplicity and untruthfulness of Islamist warring and propaganda is there for all to see. Yet you choose to believe their particular narrative and we choose to believe the more logical and more evidence based pro Jewish narrative.
This leads to just one certainty, that discussing this with you will take us nowhere.
Your version of the creation of the state of Israel is itself a creation. Ethnic cleansing, indigenous population, outside colonists?
All just words, specially picked for their emotive and misleading connotations. I think we should agree to disagree as you have made your choice, and so have we.
John A,
who cares whether RS thinks Israel should have been created?
Surprisingly few people in the UK do, having been kept in ignorance and misled by the BBC thanks to the peculiar left-wing affinity it has with Islam.
Unfortunately for you i have chosen the side which is in command of the facts and the side which is less tarnished by history. That is not the arab side but the human side. The books and people i was referring are not even Arab. Why do people like you insist on breaking the whole issue down to either being on the side of Jews or on the side of Arabs. Why can you not put religion aside, step back and take a look at the reality from a humanist point of view? just because the reality puts zionism in a bad light does not mean one shouldn’t pursue the truth. If you people think what was inflicted on the palestinians during the creation of the israeli state was fair then you are either racist toward Arabs or not in complete command of the facts. Ben-gurion himself admitted what happened to the palestinians was unfair, how can you sit and there and pretend otherwise. As regards your question john do i think the Israeli state should have been created, the simple answer is no. For several reasons, one being it contradicts the Torah (which many pious Jews will tell you), second it was built on land stolen from others, third if any land should have been forfeited after the second world war for the zionist project it should have been somewhere in Europe, not in the Levant, but even then innocent people would still have suffered. As king Victor Emmanuel III replied to Theodor Herzl’s request for a jewish state in Tripoli in 1904 “Ma é ancora casa di altri”
(but it is still the home of other people). Fourth, zionism is not a cure to anti-semitism, infact it has probably helped to inflame it, you are just incapable of seeing that.
Seeing as you seem to have avoided the points raised in my last post which clearly demonstrated the activites of certain pro-israel groups and their attempt to police academia, perhaps you might be so good as to tell me why you support what happened to the palestinians in 1948? because as a humanist for the life of me i cannot see why any decent human being could support such events.
And who do you think the Palestinians were in 1948?
Go on Sue, amaze me with you Joan Peters grasp of ‘facts’.
Perhaps you’d care to tell me what the two rabbis who visited Palestine in 1897 meant by “The bride is beautiful,” they wrote, “but she is married to another man” ?
Somebody’s whining about stolen land again? Zzzzzzzz….
Yeah David…and I suggesrt you read 'Image and Reality' by Norman Finkelstein who provides a very concicse analysis of the lies and manipulations Joan Peters fomented in her bid to delegitimise the palestinians claim to their own land. But hey, they are arabs and have dark skin…so its ok to rob them !!!!!
RS,
I see. Ignore facts on the ground and go directly to interpretation. You’d make an excellent BBC employee.
RS
While you’re at it why not bring in Adolf Hitler, Gilad Atzmon and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and you forgot to mention Alexei Sayle and well known sage Annie Lennox.
I see. Ignore facts on the ground’
which is what Joan Peters precisely did. in his book Finkelstein compares the sources Peters cited against what she actually wrote and showed how she fiddled the figures. You don’t seem to be aware of this !
I googled “Finkelstein Israel”
First find was Israel Finkelstein, and archaeologist. A world authority on Jewish settlements in “Palestine”.
Just another aspect of the historical claim for a Jewish homeland in that area.
Seems to me that people arguing that Israel should not exist are upagainst history – and people’s general knowledge of the Old Testament – centred on “Palestine”. The place the Jews wanted to return to when in exile – evryone knows the chors of “By the Rivers of Babylon”.
But people who blind themselves against that reality dating back several millennia will carry on being blind – or bigoted.
Jesus wept John A, should we hand over Europe to the pagans and move all christians out considering paganism pre-dates christianity?
Also you seem ignorant that many palestinians would be descended from jews who converted to islam and christianity, they can trace their lineage back just as far as indigenous jews (which the vast majority in israel are not). Thirdly you seem ignorant of the khazars and the fact that many jews converted from other religions. Fourthly there is a book by Shlomo Sand which kind of …..well….destroys your pathteic little racist attmept at denying a peoples rights…i'd invite you to look it up. Someone is up against history all right, the real history, one which isn't contained in 'Holy Books'. PS it aint me 😉
Which pagans are claiming Europe ?
Do you think Americans should give everything back to the Native Americans ? Or Australia should belong to the Aborigines ?
Or are those cases somehow different ?
And if you felt that any Jewish homeland should be in Europe – that would displace Wuropeams ?
You clearly have nil sense of realism – just an animus against Israel which to me sounds obsessive.
And your "scholar" Finkelstein sounds a real creep, no wonder he has no post at any university. What part of his "scholarly" activities involve him consorting with Hisbollah ? Plus he has a lot of way-out support among anti-Semitic groups.
R S I wrote to you at 3:11 on June 1st. What I said then deals with this. You don't seem to have read it.
This bit in particular :
"Let’s assume, shall we, that both sides have listened only to voices we have chosen to support, and have ignored or disregarded the arguments made by opposition.
You have chosen the Arab narrative, we the Jewish.
The evidence provided by Islam-driven antisemitism, etc. etc. is there for all to see. Yet you choose to believe their particular narrative and we choose to believe the more logical and more evidence-based pro Jewish narrative. "
All the polemicists you rely on, have, we believe, been discredited by the people we rely on. And you will say this in reverse. Our polemicists are bigger than your polemicists.
This leads to just one certainty, that discussing this with you will get us nowhere.
'You have chosen the Arab narrative'
Incorrect, most of the scholars infact the vast majority whom i agree with are in no way Arab.
'we the Jewish'
Again incorrect. There are many jews who do not support zionism. You are still breaking everything along religious lines which is the work of a child. It would be more accuurate to say pro-zionist or anti-zionist.
'The evidence provided by Islam-driven antisemitism'
Ahh back to bashing islam and ignoring the historical facts.
'Yet you choose to believe their particular narrative'
No I don't, I believe the historical record which clearly demonstrates what happened to the palestinians, the fact some anti-semities might use historical realities for their own ends does not mean we should ignore or pretend something didn't happen. Only a bigot would suggest something so stupid.
'we choose to believe the more logical and more evidence-based pro Jewish narrative'
Again with the religious slant. Why can you not refer to pro-zionism? Its because of sectarian statements like yours seeing the whole issue as being solely muslim or jewish which actually gives succour to the anti-semites you seem to detest so much.
'All the polemicists you rely on, have, we believe, been discredited by the people we rely on'
Please demonstrate where Finkelstein or Quigley or Neumann have been discreditied by 'your people' becuase if you actaully bothered to investigate it, you would see its precisely the opposite way round. Dershowtiz made a fool out of himself, in a live debate and by publishing a book borrowing heavily from a well known hoax.
'And you will say this in reverse.'
Correct…see above !
'This leads to just one certainty, that discussing this with you will get us nowhere.'
Sounds like you concede…but before you go, may i suggest the following for your reading list
Image and reality – Finkelstein
Beyond Chutzpah – Finkelstein
The Case against Israel – Neumann
The case for Palestine – Quigley
RS
You don't agree that the state of Israel should have been created.
That in itself is a hugely extreme point of view.
You presumably think it should not continue to exist in any meaningful form as a homeland for Jews.
That too would be a hugely extreme point of view.
……
Plus you know damn well that the "Arab narrative" is espoused not just by Arabs. It is also supported by nutters like your guy Finkelstein. An "academic" who it seems cannot get another job in academia. He sounds totally bitter and twisted to me.
'Which pagans are claiming Europe ?'
So if some where you'd be happy to leave?
'Or are those cases somehow different ?'
Well for one they didn't occur within living memory, nor were nthe crimes against them allowed to happen to assuage the guilt of the west. Nor are they hered into bantustans and treated in the manner in which the palestinians are. But at least you seem to be admitting the palestinians have suffered which can only be seenas a step in the right direction.
'And if you felt that any Jewish homeland should be in Europe – that would displace Wuropeams ?'
Ahh now we get down to the crux of it. The palestinians can be displaced because they are what? sub-human? lower than we mighty white europeans? Its ok to ethnically cleanse them off their won land is it?
'You clearly have nil sense of realism '
No actaully i have plenty of realism rooted in a knwoledge of the history, i unlike many here do not see history through the pages of 'Holy books'.
'And your "scholar" Finkelstein sounds a real creep'
How so? Because he is jewish…perhaps its because he is the son of holocaust survivors…or perhaps he is just not afraid to shine a light into the dark underbelly of israel's foundations. You seem to think history should not be discussed if it makes for uncomfortable reading?
'Plus he has a lot of way-out support among anti-Semitic groups.'
So because various groups can use what occurred in History for their own nefarious agenda we shouldn't admit to or analyse that history? Israel and zionism recieves support from many far -out groups as well, unsavoury sorts who enjoy a bit of arab or muslim bashing, i expect your ok with that though?
'You don't agree that the state of Israel should have been created.'
So you agree on ethnic cleansing?
'You presumably think it should not continue to exist in any meaningful form as a homeland for Jews.'
No i think certain aspects of cultural zionism are acceptable, and i also think it should be a one state solution with the right of return for the palestinians refugees.
'Plus you know damn well that the "Arab narrative" is espoused not just by Arabs. It is also supported by nutters like your guy Finkelstein.'
Here we go again. Have you even read any of his books are just rely on what you read on jihadiwatch type sites. having read both dershowtiz and Finkelstein and seen the manner in which he demonstrated the nonsense dershowtiz talks and the fraudulent works he relies on for his sources, it is not any kind of narrative but the truth which i side with. You seem to be afraid to admit to historical reality because either you are a anti-arab/anti-islamic bigot or because you are afraid of being labelled an anti-semite. not a good mindset either way if it keeps you denying the truth. the only bitter person is poor old Dershowtiz who was made a lughing stock out of by finkelstein who then rpoceeded to halt publication of finkelsteins book and sent letters urging Depaul not to give him tenure. I suggest you read up on it !
RS
Each time I try to simplify things, you stir up some more mud from the bottom. I have no interest in throwing a reading list back at you, or telling you which websites to look at, but believe me, I could.
If you must, call this a victory. As the Dragon said to the entrepreneur “I’m out.”
RS
What a load of baloney you spout.
But it is clear that yopu disagree with the creation of Israel – and you would now like to see any meaningful state of Israel destroyed by returnees. That is what your slippery words really mean.
Finkelstein appears to be shunned by academia, Derschovitz has a senior position. That suggests to me that Finkelstein is a charlatan. But hey – you cling to his nonsense and your hatred of Isreal as much as you like.
And don't try kidding anyone that you don't hate Israel.
RS,
You remind me of a bus going down a mountain road without brakes. Its not even worth debating you as your so entrenched in the gibley glob that "Finkestein" and other sorts have spun at you
Wow talk about a load of man playing and not much ball playing going on. As it seems im the only one here who has read both Finkelstein and Dershowtiz (you see i actually do examine both arguments) one can only assume this site is a mere bunch of 'yes men' with a pathological hatred of Arabs and muslims who refuse to see the historical reality staring them in the face.
'What a load of baloney you spout.'
No John, afraid i do not. Im not the one who relies on religious books written to serve religious intrests for my history. I actually go to acdemics and historians to find out what happened, not priests and rabbis !
Are any of you even willing to admit the ethnic cleansig which the palestinians suffered so that Israel could be established?
RS,
Obviously you're talking about a diminished definition of "ethnic cleansing". Yes, it's true, thousands of Arabs were pushed from a few areas by Ben Gurion and his men. However, the majority of Arabs fled on their own. Yes, that's right. They fled because their Arab neighbors told them to get out of the way of the war, or just because they were frightened by rumors that they would be slaughtered by the Jews.
If the Jews were really interested in ethnic cleansing, there wouldn't be well over a million Arabs living in Israel right now, would there?
Are you willing to admit the ethnic cleansing which the Jews suffered in all Arab Muslim countries in retaliation for Israel's creation?
Are you willing to admit what any of the Arab Muslim countries did to the Palestinians from 1948 onwards?
We can play this game for ages and ages.
RS
If you dispute the accounts in the Bible of Jews having a home in the Middle East dating back millenia, you are really a big yawn.
I don't hate Arabs. I just think their actions are mostly stupid or vicious. Time after time they have thrown away the chance of a Palestinian state – becasue their primary aim is the destruction of Israel. Which is your aim as well, isn't it ?
That's the difference. Folk here would mostly wish to see a sensible Palestinian state created, would wish to see peace. But you want the Jewish state of Israel swept away instead.
David, yet again you rehash long debunked lies. The Arabs instructed the majority of palestinians to flee? I would direct you to a study carried out by Erskine Childers of the newspaper and radio broadcasts monitored by the near east monitoring station during the evnts of 1948 and once you look at that, I'll be very happy if you didn't peddle such lies again.
'Are you willing to admit the ethnic cleansing which the Jews suffered in all Arab Muslim countries in retaliation for Israel's creation?'
Yes, i am. but you didn't admit to the ethnic cleansing the palestinians suffered, you had to belittle it and tell lies regarding the events. Anti-arab are we?
Its only a 'game' david if you continue to peddle long debunked lies.
RS:
Debunked? Prove it. No racist, me. Stop the slander, please. You're the one belittling the plight of an ethnic group, not me.
what ethnic group am i belittling?
I take it from your 'prove it' that you didn't bother to see the proof which makes you a complete laughing stock for continuing to peddle the pro-zionist lies.
Why don't you google Erskine Childers and palestine, the evidence is there, he was one of the first to uncover the zionist lies, many have done so since. but its a credit to the power of propaganda that you are still rehashing such nonsense 61 years later !
RS,
You're belittling Jews, obviously.
I've read Childers and know all about your "proof". It's more propaganda. Most Palestinians "ethnically cleansed" themselves. Although really it was the armies from the Arab countries "defending them" who led the way. They've admitted it many times.
If you actually studied reality instead of alt-history and conspiracy theories, you'd be at least as angry at what the Arab Muslim countries have done to the Palestinians as you are at Israel. But I bet you don't.
I hope this doesn't become yet another long thread hijack by someone demanding that we all denounce Israel as a terrorist, racist, illegal entity. If that's your true purpose here, and nothing to do with BBC bias, then let's just leave it.
David there are many jews more more vocal and critical of Israel than I, so your sad litlle attempt to insinuate anti-semitism on my part is just that.
Oh and i would direct you to the section in this link titled 'Broadcasts Christopher Hitchens' please do read it in full and then perhaps you will cease ti make a laughing stock out of yourself infront of more well informed company. I suppose you are going to tell me Hitchens is an anti-semite?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaming_the_Victims