Ways of making them talk

What has the BBC got to say about the M.P.s who are talking to Hamas in Syria? Suicide-bomber sympathiser Jenny Tonge aims to force our government to talk to Hamas, and put pressure on the US to do so too. She said she was aware that her meeting with Meshaal could be considered illegal and that she could face arrest on return to the UK.

“That is one of the risks that you take,” she said, hoping for martyrdom, but stopping short of suicide.
Will they they arrest Clare Short, Michael Ankram and Fianna Fáil TD, Chris Andrews too? He knows all about ‘talking’, what with the NI peace process – oh wait.
The BBC has been strangely quiet about this, unlike several other news outlets, but
Sarah Montague is overtly in favour of talking to Hamas, – can’t wait for Today tomorrow.

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45 Responses to Ways of making them talk

  1. Gus Haynes says:

    Sue, what exactly is your complaint about Baroness Tonge (who isn’t an MP by the way) meeting with Hamas? Yes they are terrorists, but she is right, you cannot have a peace deal of some kind without talking to these people.

    And more to the point, what does this have to do with bbc bias? You’re upset the BBC isn’t covering it? But if they were convering it, wouldn’t you then accuse them of being terrorist sympathisers or anti-Israel?

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  2. Sue says:

    Gus Haynes | 15.03.09 – 9:16 pm
    Sue, what exactly is your complaint about Baroness Tonge (who isn’t an MP by the way) meeting with Hamas?
    I have no complaint about Jenny Tonge meeting with Hamas. It’s just a shame she has to come back.
    Yes they are terrorists, but she is right, you cannot have a peace deal of some kind without talking to these people.
    Or with. They’re hell-bent on destroying Israel. Nothing less will do. The need to be isolated and marginalised, not appeased or pandered to.

    And more to the point, what does this have to do with bbc bias? You’re upset the BBC isn’t covering it?
    Did I say that? No. I said I was looking forward to it.
    But if they were convering it, wouldn’t you then accuse them of being terrorist sympathisers or anti-Israel?
    Either way, they are and I am.

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  3. CeannP says:

    Remind me again of those meetings the Allies had with Hitler, Goebbels & Co. before VE day? Or with Tojo & the Japanese high command before VJ day?

    Oh hang on, of course that wasn’t ‘peace’ which, er, has lasted in Germany/Japan since,er, 1945.

    You’re right, you can’t have peace without talking (i.e capitulating) to ‘these people’…

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  4. David T says:

    Talking to terrorists, openly – as opposed to the sort of ongoing ‘back channels’ chat that all governments do – is something that is very much to be encouraged.

    Here’s the way it works.

    1. You approach the terrorists and offer them the opportunity to enter into negotiations as long as they take moves to put violence permanently behind them.

    2. They do so.

    3. You engage with them openly.

    This is the way it doesn’t work:

    1. You offer terrorists the opportunity to enter into negotiations with you.

    2. The terrorists think “Blimey – whatever we were doing before clearly was the right way to get what we want”

    3. More bombs go off.

    This is Northern Ireland in the 1990s v Northern Ireland in the 1970s.

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  5. Gus Haynes says:

    CeannP:

    bad, lazy comparison. leave hitler out of it, there is no comparison between the nazis invading europe, and Islamic terrorists without a state, who don’t invade anywhere.

    Hitler/Nazi metaphors are useless in these discussions, refrain from them for your own credibility.

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  6. Chuffer says:

    “…and Islamic terrorists without a state, who don’t invade anywhere..”

    Blimey, your eyes are shut, aren’t they Gus!?

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  7. Dick the Prick says:

    CeanneP didn’t mention Hitler – Godwins law Sir!

    It is a realistic approach that all dissident groups have to be communicated with. There is nothing on any table until Hamas talk to Fatah – maybe we could send them jacuzzis!

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  8. Dick the Prick says:

    Ooops! Apologise.

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  9. Gus Haynes says:

    apology noted….

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  10. Dick the Prick says:

    Hamas are knobheads though, as are Fatah – depending on who you believe Yasser Arraft had £30bn in Switzerland (although he was vaguely cheap himself), Mugabe – poor £7bn – job club beckons. Was Tschangari pissed up???

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  11. Dick the Prick says:

    Zimbabwe
    I noted at the time the white ‘gonna be appointed minister in the MDC’ was arrested and no one seemed bothered on inauguration day. Was he a pisshead? Been released now though – toughlove priory? Is he a triple agent funding the confluence of raw material exports and weaponary imports? Siphillis – ain’t no picnic. Mugabe is an arse and Tsvagari is drugged (self) up to fuck. Clare Short is perhaps the most stupid woman ever and a sniper would be cheap.

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  12. feline says:

    The only good terrorist is dead terrorist. No need to talk to them, just exterminate the vermin

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  13. Dick the Prick says:

    I am absolutely loving watching middle class Pakis getting thrown into the back of policevans. Hardly reassuring but comedy.

    Gaia prescribes hill top refugees. Any one of you peeps find yourself in Huddersfield – how do?

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  14. CeannP says:

    Gus, thanks for the sneering condescension but don’t tell me what is valid or not OK? Especially with your tedious ‘Don’t mention Hitler’ spiel. Is it ‘unfortunate’ for you for people to mention someone who shares the same ideology as your Hamas pals?

    Leaving aside Hitler, is Tojo now also on your list of selected war-mongers to be left off the list of ‘mentionables’ in this discussion? Please publish this list of what is allowed or not…since you appear to have been granted god-given rights as to what is up for discussion or not…

    Hamas are Jew-haters. Fact. As were the Nazis. Fact. I don’t really give a damn if you like the analogy or not but come on, tell us what do you discuss with a group committed to the destruction of a state and annihilation of it’s people?

    The only credibility shot to pieces here is your own pathetic pusillanimous attitude to Islamist terrorists like Hamas…

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  15. frankos says:

    I’m sure a bunch of lefty liberals will feel right at home discussing anti American morality with a bunch of Jew,democracy,fee market and women hating bigots from Hamas.
    Would make umissable telly

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  16. Jon says:

    “She said she was aware that her meeting with Meshaal could be considered illegal and that she could face arrest on return to the UK.”

    They no longer imprison traitors in this country any more, if they did the whole of the government would be locked up.

    I wonder will Cameron sack Ankram? Probably not the whole politcal class are now all as bad as each other.

    CeannP | 16.03.09 – 12:14 am |

    I agree with you that there are striking simularities – but Gus wouldn’t see it. The lefties see themeselves as the “referees” on what is and is not allowed. Its also used as self censorship – so the likes of Gus will not inadvertently see any obvious conections. As was common in Britain before the war, the left don’t want to see the truth about Hamas as it fits in with their anti-west agenda.

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  17. Gus Haynes says:

    I have an ‘anti-west’ agenda do I? news to me…. tell me, wise one, how you come to that conclusion based on my post?

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  18. Rich says:

    Where’s the BBC bias in this story????? Or rather – non-story. Very poor blogging.

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  19. Jon says:

    “…you cannot have a peace deal of some kind without talking to these people” – this is the appeasers view used by many anti-west “liberals”.

    Hamas is not the Palestianian people – just as the Nazis were not the German people.

    By talking to terrorists you give them an acceptability and this does not lead to peace but further demands.

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  20. Garden Trash says:

    “Sue, what exactly is your complaint about Baroness Tonge (who isn’t an MP by the way) meeting with Hamas? Yes they are terrorists, but she is right, you cannot have a peace deal of some kind without talking to these people.”

    Since Britain cannot deliver peace on the behalf of either of the protagonists,just WTF are British pols doing sticking their noses in?

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  21. Oxfordian says:

    bad, lazy comparison. leave hitler out of it, there is no comparison between the nazis invading europe, and Islamic terrorists without a state, who don’t invade anywhere.

    No no no Mr Haynes. You seem to be unaware that there was a point at which hitler did not have a state; the Islamofascists certainly want a state, they most definitely would like to invade and subjugate the kuffar, and have an ideology which is based on the global domination of Islam.

    The also, unfortunately, share with the Nazi party rabid anti-semitism, a loathing of our democratic system, and a wish to enforce a social policy that would take us back to the Middle Ages.

    Now go away and do your homework if you want to be taken seriously.

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  22. Scott says:

    Sue: “I have no complaint about Jenny Tonge meeting with Hamas. It’s just a shame she has to come back.”

    Quite right. Instead of travelling to the area and finding out for herself, she should clearly have stayed behind, not bothered learning anything, and just constructed blog posts based on ignorance that wish death upon people with whom she disagrees.

    Now that would be classy.

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  23. deegee says:

    Quite right. Instead of travelling to the area and finding out for herself,
    Scott | Homepage | 16.03.09 – 7:55 am

    Fact finding tours are a simply a photo opportunity, a opportunity for minor politicians to waste money on flights on issues of at most marginal relevance to the people in their electorate. For a few days they are treated like V.I.P.s, their egos are boosted and they are shown exactly what their hosts want them to see; meet exactly who their hosts want them to meet and hear exactly the message their hosts want to send to the people back home.

    just constructed blog posts based on ignorance that wish death upon people with whom she disagrees.

    The B-BBC blog is notable for the frequent high degree of research and scholarship. D.V. doesn’t moderate as much as I would like but despite slips this blog is generally free of threats and flaming.

    Sue’s Jenny Tongue remark was sarcasm. Perhaps she should have indicated this by a smilie for the benefit of those who don’t recognise sarcasm.
    🙂 or perhaps 🙁 ❓

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  24. ady says:

    The beeb is pro-Hamas lol…

    Anyway, British politicians are irrelevant in the middle east.
    Tony Baloney is the middle east envoy as well…lol talk about a waste of time and money.

    The mid east conflict is between America, Israel and the Islamics.
    Always has been, always will be.

    The last time an Israeli nearly created peace he was called Yitzhak Rabin and he took a bullet for his troubles.
    Maybe in 1000 years they’ll try again.

    The Brits probbly fancied a nice wee all expenses paid holiday somewhere sunny, after a rather chilly UK winter.

    There’s no other logical explanation.

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  25. James H says:

    hamas don’t deserve to be talked to, they deserve to be killed.

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  26. Cockney says:

    Would Jenny like to feed back on the outcome of her talks? I have absolutely no problem with people talking to Hamas if it’ll help but it would be nice for a status update. Or were they just chatting about Corrie or the footy?

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  27. deegee says:

    Sue, what exactly is your complaint about Baroness Tonge (who isn’t an MP by the way) meeting with Hamas?
    Gus Haynes | 15.03.09 – 9:16 pm

    Leaving aside specific arguments about the Israel/Palestine/Arab/Islam conflict which I declare a vested interest.

    1) Rule of Law:
    The Government of the the United Kingdom to which all the participants have sworn loyalty has declared Hamas to be a terrorist organization. Surely that shouldn’t be taken lightly. The same argument should apply to all organizations declared to be terrorist.

    How can the British politicians demand ordinary citizens respect the laws of the Realm if they do not?

    2) Respect for majority decisions:
    All governments of the UK and the three major parties (Conservative. Labour and Lib/Dem) have declared support for the survival of the State of Israel. How can that group remain in their parties and/or in the Government when they are negotiating with a group whose raison d’être is the destruction of that country? The same rule applies to any ‘national liberation’ group.

    Unfortunately Britain doesn’t have the same rules as the USA that foreign diplomacy is exclusively the province of the MFO and the Government.

    Why shouldn’t the ordinary citizen have the ‘right’ to visit the Polissario Front of Western Sahara or the Democratic Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda (FDLR) or the Taleban if this group has that right?

    3) Respect for common sense:
    The UK has a marginal role in the ‘peace process’. Even if that role expands none of this group will have any role to play. Israel will not accept them in any position and they don’t fulfill any requirements for a neutral mediator.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but none of this group holds any position to put pressure on the Government. Making theatrical gestures without any power to act on them is nothing more than grandstanding.

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  28. NotaSheep says:

    Don’t feed the Gus Haynes troll.

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  29. martin says:

    David Cameron finally starting to put the boot into the BBC. We will freeze licence fee he says.

    Notice how the beeboids got all wound up at his press conference over it.

    But that isn’t enough. The licence fee MUST be cut and finally abolished.

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  30. Gus Haynes says:

    Cameron didn’t really go far enough in my view – spending needs to be cut far more than he’s letting on. I realise it may be electoral suicide, but hes gotta make it clear that his government would radically cut govt spending if he wants my vote.

    And yeah, abolish the licence fee – I’m in favour of that, and I quite like the BBC.

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  31. Velvel says:

    Bias was in full cry on Today this morning. They did a piece about the poor Palestinians who can no longer import hydrogen peroxide for a soft drink factory in the West Bank. They do know that it can be used as a potent ingredient in explosives. Then they were moaning about not being able to bring in scooters. They can be used by bomb throwers for quick getaways.
    The bias? There was no Israeli input for an explanation. Thousands, yes thousands of Israelis have died at the hands of ‘terrorists’, er freedom fighter militants over the years. Any wonder the Israelis are a bit skittish and very careful about what they allow to be imported?

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  32. Tom says:

    deegee | 16.03.09 – 9:35 am

    Though I am implacably opposed to any deal-making with Hamas, I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

    How can the British politicians demand ordinary citizens respect the laws of the Realm if they do not?

    They aren’t breaking any laws.

    Why shouldn’t the ordinary citizen have the ‘right’ to visit the Polissario Front of Western Sahara… etc

    The ordinary citizen does have a right to do so.

    As a free British citizen, I would take it very much amiss if the government were to tell me who I could or couldn’t talk to on my travels.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but none of this group holds any position to put pressure on the Government.

    Each has a vote in his/her respective chamber. If they feel that their judgment about how to cast that vote would be usefully informed by meeting this or that group involved in any situation • then that’s a matter for them to decide.

    No government should try to tell MPs who they can or can’t meet, anymore than they should try to dictate to private citizens.

    Frankly, I would like to meet Khaled Meshaal myself – so I could give him a piece of my mind. I don’t suppose I ever will, but I’d be bloody cross if some git at Westminster tried to stop me.

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  33. jimbob says:

    curious story on media lens

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1237143045.html

    bbc has a broken link on its site – “hamas threatens rocket militants”

    the story seems to be found elsewhre on the web –

    “Hamas says continuing rocket fire by Palestinian militants from Gaza into Israel is ‘ill-timed.’ Hamas, which runs Gaza, said it had nothing to do with the attacks and would act against those responsible. The warning, issued in a brief statement, was released as Egyptian-led efforts continue to achieve a long-term ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. A key Israeli condition of any deal is the complete cessation of Palestinian rocket attacks against Israel.” (03/12/09)

    this is the broken link…

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7940371.stm

    medialens says …”Anyway, it’s an interesting article, I feel, since it confirms that Islamic Jihad have been acting autonomously from Hamas AND that Hamas have been attempting to rein them in… two things which the BBC could not bring itself to report during the recent Israeli onslaught, and this despite the fact that the Israelis had already conceded the points in its own intelligence reports.”

    does this story not fit the all important bbc “narrative”?

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  34. jimbob says:

    aha… bit clearer now… hamas police did round up 10 islamic jihad terrorists and appear to have tortured them ( proper torture, binyam mohammed type torture)into signing bits of paper promising not to fire rockets at israel again ( or until hamas say they can). the bbc apparently do not want us to know about the hamas/islamic jihad/ fatah splits as beeboids like this to be a good vs evil story and this level of detail doesn’t fit their simplistic take on the ME problems.

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1236676913621&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

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  35. Sarah Jane says:

    “but Sarah Montague is overtly in favour of talking to Hamas”
    I seem to remember the interview which Sue would have deduced this statement from.
    Isn’t it interesting how other people deduce things which are quite different:
    http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/paper/index.php?article=3948

    Some of you may find this interesting:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/mar/16/bbc-rejects-caryl-churchill-israel

    Finally, I see BBC IPs are being blocked again. Not quite sure why or even if its intentional, but I am pretty sure it is at your end.

    Dont bother fixing it on my account if there are legit reasons why it is blocked.

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  36. Sue says:

    Scott | Homepage | 16.03.09 – 7:55 am |
    Haha what a funny response. Presumably you are an expert. Because if you’re not, accusing me of constructing blog posts based on ignorance would make you look a bit silly.
    Let’s see, who did I wish death upon?
    Ah yes. When I said ‘shame she has to come back’, I didn’t mean that I hoped she would come to a sticky end at the hands of Hamas, I meant shame she has to tear herself away from her heroes, and drag herself all the way back to a country she doesn’t seem too happy with. With or without a bit of paper to brandish.

    Have you any idea who Jenny Tonge is? Thought not. But now you come to mention it Scott, it is quite likely that she would after all come to a sticky end if she stayed there, as Hamas are quite volatile and erratic and do not seem to know who their true friends are. After all she might not have the weight of the BBC behind her as did Alan “I’m here to tell your story” Johnston.

    Just think, if she were kidnapped, who would campaign on her behalf? “Free Jenny Tonge!” Not the Lib dems, they chucked her out of the party. Not the government, they’ve deemed Hamas terrorists. That leaves Clare Short. “Free Jenny Tonge! Peace in our time! Free Jenny Tonge!” Perhaps you could offer to help. A banner or two. Or a few blog posts based on expertise.

    The thought of Jenny Tonge “Learning anything” is a concept, I’ll agree. Not classy, but original.

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  37. Sue says:

    Sarah Jane | 16.03.09 – 4:11 pm |
    Sarah Jane,
    What’s your point?
    Do you mean that because that muslimnews website wanted to shut Mark Regev up so we could hear from pro Palestinian voices uninterrupted, you’ve come to the conclusion that my deduction about Sarah Montague is weird, personal and biased? Come on.
    Sarah Montague is not the only one at the BBC who thinks not talking to Hamas is the only obstacle to peace. We’ve discussed this many times before.

    The play that you refer to was simplistic Palestinian propaganda based on inaccurate history and distortion. It pandered to prejudice with pseudo profound sententiousness and was pure bias.
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3334851/the-royal-courts-mystery-play.thtml#comments
    Not transmitting it was the least the BBC could do if they’re trying to convince the public that they’re even handed.

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  38. A pox on the BBC! says:
  39. Andy says:

    Sorry bout the change of topic, but a new General thread seems overdue.

    I sincerely hope this is just the tip of Cameron’s iceberg…

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUKTRE52F3TP20090316

    A recession could be just the excuse he needs to get medieval on their ass…

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  40. sawtooth says:

    The Tories have to get elected to government first, and with a good enough majority in Parliament to last a full five-year term.

    At this stage, Cameron would be wise to venture no further than he has done, given the lengths that the BBC will go to in order to protect their parasitic position. His pledge for a freeze on the BBC’s annual tax-revenue can then be extended to apply to all other areas of the public sector, except for law enforcement and defence.

    Once elected, the next Conservative government should start by finishing off the BBC, and then take it on from there.

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  41. Millie Tant says:

    Never mind freezing it; it should go DOWN in any case as the population – all those millions of immigrants – keeps going up. Yet I have never seen any explanation as to why the licence fee amount per individual keeps going UP.

    Aside from this particular point about the need under the current system for the level of the fee to go down to reflect population growth, I think a much more radical change is needed under which it should be cut to about one tenth of what it is or else abolished altogether. There is absolutely no need for a grandiose and profligate BBC which stalks the land and throws money around as if it was confetti.

    And under its current conduct, it is downright harmful to this country and general society because of its dominant and protected position, political agenda, overwhelming bias, insidious propaganda and indoctrination.

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  42. Jenny Tonge and others like her believe that gaza is comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto. This link describes the true heroism of Irena Sendler who saved 2500 people from murder in that hell-hole.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/sendler.asp

    She was put forward as a candidate for the Nobel Peace prize in 2007 but that went to Al Gore for a propaganda video.

    Nobel Committee, BBC, Al Gore: all devaluing the world that our forefathers saved for us.

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  43. North Northwester says:

    Gus Haynes:
    CeannP:

    bad, lazy comparison. leave hitler out of it, there is no comparison between the nazis invading europe, and Islamic terrorists without a state, who don’t invade anywhere.

    Fool.

    This is somewhere:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162039/Minister-beaten-clashing-Muslims-TV-show.html

    It’s London. In England.

    They didn’t parachute out of a plane or wade ashore from landing craft or break through any fortifications but they are making war on freedom of religion in England.

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  44. David Preiser (USA) says:

    Sarah Jane | 16.03.09 – 4:11 pm |

    Finally, I see BBC IPs are being blocked again. Not quite sure why or even if its intentional, but I am pretty sure it is at your end.

    Dont bother fixing it on my account if there are legit reasons why it is blocked.

    Are you sure there isn’t some China-style censorship going on by your bosses? 🙂

    Sorry. Seriously, I think David Vance banned someone not too long ago for posting under a regular user’s name. (Possibly “Bill Buchanan”?) He spent a short time as a rather angry defender of the indefensible, then posted comments under somebody else’s name. DV banned him. It would be slightly amusing if the troll was doing that from a BBC office. It’s only a guess on my part, of course.

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  45. TPO says:

    I seem to recall that whilst the Taliban and their Al Quaida mates were dismembering, burning, stoning and excuting people in the Kandahar football stadium, the grotesquely stupid Tonge woman was suggesting bombing the Taliban with food parcels.

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